It’s the time of the year when associates and practices are scurrying to find one another.

Rob and Paul decided to celebrate the joyous season by talking about the “Dos and Don’ts” of associate employment relationships from the perspective of both the practice and the associate. They drill down on what to look for and what to avoid.

For associates wanting to learn more, be sure to check out the webinar “Lies, Loans and Life After Dental School” featuring Dr. Nacho and Rob by texting LLL to 444999.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Dental Amigos podcast with Dr. Paul Goodman and attorney Rob Montgomery, taking you behind the scenes of the dental business world. All the things you didn't learn in dental school, but wish you had. Rob Is not a dentist and Paul is not a lawyer, but since Rob is a lawyer, we need to tell you that this podcast is for informational purposes only and it shouldn't be considered legal advice listening to this podcast, does not and will not create an attorney client relationship. As is always the case, you should formally consult with legal counsel before proceeding with any legal matter. Learn more about the dental amigos at www.thedentalamigos.com. And now here are the Dental Amigos.

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Rob: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Dental Amigos. I'm Rob Montgomery and I'm joined as always by the head nacho himself. Dr. Paul Goodman.

Paul: Great to be here with you, Rob

Rob: Paul. It's good to see you. Uh, and a happy associate agreement sees, yeah, this is the season. Like this is the season to be jolly. It's like taxis and right. Everybody is scrambling to, to hire, uh, young associates and recent grads or looking for jobs. So this is TIS the season to answer questions about associate agreements. Uh, certainly in our office, uh, we have numerous inquiries on a daily basis. Uh, and I'm sure Paul, I got numerous inquiries through my phone and text and actually I can relate it to the first day of school in a, in a nostalgic way. Uh, cause I got a text this morning from someone who was a nice man, said, uh, I made it through my first day as an associate.

Paul: The owner wasn't there, so it was great. You know, it was like we get some cookies at the end. Right. I'm just got cookies anyways. My no everyday afternoon thing. But you know, it's kind of funny as excited, you know, my daughter, when she first started sailing camp years ago when she was like, I guess probably like eight years old, she came home and I said, you know, how was sailing? She said, uh, it was good. Two people fall over. Barbara, we didn't lose anybody. That's great. Well that's good. Yes. Yeah. Happy to hear that you didn't lose anybody. And so for associates out there that you make it through day one, that's kinda like not losing anybody when they fall off the boat. We're all that. That's the way it should be. But it's good to hear nonetheless. I think it must be, no, I know we do a lot of things and I mean I'm such a person who just wants Dennis to work more together, working groups, be in the same space together.

Paul: And if somebody, you know, as with Egan, I was an associate brand new associate, my dad's practice, I'll never forget that first day on a Saturday where I did hygiene and you know, my dad was great because he, you know, engage me in my excitement and there's just a great eagerness from that that brings actually great energy to the office and it probably brings great energy to the patients because you know, when you're a medium age, Dennis stands for mad Rob. That's how I feel. Right? You know, you kind of like, and you know, you're busy kind of like, Oh, it's just another day here. Right? And then you bring in this eager person and it's just, I just like to point out that that's just really a, uh, a cool thing and a great thing and good for the office and good for the patients. Yeah, it definitely can be. I mean, it's like anything, you know, you, it's what you make of it. And I almost feel, I, I feel like as an older professional, you have that responsibility to, you know, make it exciting and, and it holds you accountable for things that you should hold yourself accountable for anyway. What much, like when you have company over your house where you kind of, uh, behave in a way that's a model behavior in a good way. Right. You know, like you're bringing in an associates. So yeah, I got to also be a good role model here with whether it's how I interact with the team or playing my cases and it's just a good, it's a good accountability thing.

Rob: Yeah. And it's also a perfect opportunity to just, you know, have your mindset open to change. There's a new person who's going to bring some new ideas, even though they don't have experience, they, they just got out of school. They are freshly meant it right with, with, uh, hopefully, you know, clinically the, the skills and whatever, you know, is the current technology and Karen, you know, best practices and you, you should really need to embrace that and realize that things are changing and people are changing and it's a tremendous opportunity to continue to evolve yourself. You know, we've talked about this in different contexts, you know, truly as a, as a, as a mad dentist and then a sad dentist, dentist, uh, that you know, you can be happier if you continue to evolve and continue to do new things and reinvent yourself and your practice. And if you want to do the same thing the same way for 40 years and right. Have fun with that. I'd like to share some insight from being around your office as the, as the favorite client. I'm the only one who comes in, but that's okay. We won't, we won't play it, but I come into your office and see what you guys do. You know, I, I, one of my favorite books was a, the from and Mitch McTeer. He was the top, he was Tom cruise in that. And I remember when he started at Justin's like Tom cruise, that salmon, I remember when he started, he had to, they dumped all these things on for research. Right? It's like, you know, classic thing where he would look into things and I actually encourage young associates to embrace stuff like that with whether it's new technology or some of the people who've been on our podcasts, you know, listen to a podcast from someone who's been here about, you know, a local med, look into it for your owner and bring them this good idea.

Paul: It just helps everyone. And, and uh, you know, you're going to be a mad dentist on time. And the reason why you can't do that is usually Rob term, you don't have the bandwidth to process new things cause you're too busy making sure the place survives. And you know, if you're a young associate listening to that and you're on dental notches or you meet me or, and I say, Hey, look into this service and you say, I don't have my own practice, I say even better, more reason to look into it. You can test it out in this practice, bring it to the owner and it'll be a good idea. And we have some awesome associates that with Jeff and uh, they bring us good ideas and look into stuff all the time. So I think that's just a really good point.

Rob: Yeah. And to that point, sort of digress a little bit of a sort of get off track on that. I think it's important too for young associates to be mindful and respectful of what that older dentist has to do. I was reading an article in the Harvard Harvard business review, um, not too long ago and like the headline was like, how manage your boss

Paul: like, well that's kind of a strange thing. Like how, how does that work? You know? And, but it made sense and obviously I'm on the other end of that. And there are times where, uh, I don't think that people realize everything that I need to do. Right. And you know, you need to be sort of put yourself in your employer's shoes that, you know, if you see that, uh, the, the dentist that you're working for has, you know, a stacked schedule and it's a stressful day and you know, there are difficult patients or difficult procedures. You don't pick that moment to go stop in and ask me something that's not time-sensitive, you know, and uh, it's cause it's just not, it's not good for them. It's not good for your relationship and ultimately you're not going to get quality mentorship, you know, be true. So be, be aware of what's going on around you.

Paul: You are not the only person in that office. You're not the only dentist. Well, I think I said the point and that's why I encouraged going to these, you know, C courses face to face and going to offices because you need to get a sense. So, you know, uh, when we only had one small human and living in our house and I would come home from the office, sometimes I might say, are we having dinner soon with genuine curiosity to marry? I mean, it was genuinely curious and she wouldn't take it that way. She said, can you believe what I do today? And I didn't know. Now with a second small human, I don't ask that question like that, right? Good job. But it's, it's to defend myself. I was really asking it with true authenticity. [inaudible] and she was just in a place of having, being nuts with a new child.

Paul: You had to learn them with each other, you know, and uh, uh, that's part of the associate owner relationship. And what I would encourage our listeners to do, you know, I'm going to try to do this at my office, uh, or Jeff has, uh, you know, get your voice memo. No, don't violate hiphop. Definitely not Linda Harvey will lose that. But you got to get your voice memo on your phone and follow your, your owner around, uh, maybe a day off and just record how many questions he or she gets asked, right? And then just ended up at the end of the day and find out this is what actually I think there should be a great, uh, study or story. Find out how many relate to patient care clinically and how many relate to running the business. And it's going to be 80% business, 20% clinical care. And that's what I think when you're new and I meet, we may deal with your associates.

Paul: They think it's the, you know, I don't know what you guys do. Rub right towards them. Briefs. It's the writing of the torts and briefs, but it's the managing the client, talking about what it costs, getting back to people. And that's, that's the stuff that, you know, the NFL, um, I think did a cool thing when they did all that, um, sideline miked up stuff. And it was amazing to me to see the speed of what happens out there. Right. You're sitting in Holmesian so I think it's a, it's a good point. You needed a ride along with your, with your boss or owner, owner and or your wife. We met metaphor for life [inaudible] life lesson from Paul Goldman and Rob Walker. I like that. It's all about Timmy and I was saying this to the residents. It's about getting a sense, right? It's about getting a sense like if they were talking and this kind of, this actually can kind of help with this. A great top 10 agreement [inaudible] put together Rob. But

Paul: like they were asking me last night, if a patient doesn't want to sign an informed consent for removal of a tooth, what do you do? Right. If they don't want to sign in, sign this informed consent or they don't want to sign the financial agreement, I say they're just waving at you and saying, I'm going to be a problem and you're likely going to take their tooth out without a problem. But if you skip that portion that you're, you've managed the relationship badly and it might be best to refer it out because if you have, if you have, you know, dentist words, the way we're trained, Rob, it's like we're always looking for what goes wrong. I mean it just could be like with law you deal with that too. But most goes right. But if someone comes in and says, I don't want to sign your financial agreement, I don't, I don't agree with any of this stuff. I'm just gonna pay you whenever I want to pay you. And you had 10 people sign it. You just say to this person, it might not be the place for you and whatever language you want. And I think that's really hard to learn as a young associate because you want to please people. And I burned myself many times.

Rob: Well you know, as a young associate to use, don't have enough of a sample to realize that this is truly one out of a hundred and because you've only seen three. So for now, this is one out of three times this happens. Like, no, not necessarily. This is, this is really an outlier. And so, and then you'd see with, you know, the eventual byproduct of continuing to work with a person like that is, and we do too, obviously, you know, it's interesting

Paul: dental space and it probably happens in yours too. Those people, they're not evil or they're not, you know, terrible people. They just operate in a way that can be very frustrating and annoying. And sometimes if you don't identify that, then they're with you forever because then they don't leave. Right. So it's like, dad, you're my dentist. What do you mean you, you, you, it's this management. It's this hurdle, which like, we have a financial agreement at Pennington dental and it's one, you know, I developed it like 10 years ago and it's just, you know, it's like kind of ages us. We're like litmus test. We'd done it. I don't think I would does the litmus test anymore, but like you know, we stick, it's like if someone doesn't want to pick one of those three options and they want to pay you $20 a month for the rest of your life, they're going to say it's never going to work out with that patient. And I've, I've regretted that. That's why that's the purpose of this podcast in life is to share some things you would have done differently.

Rob: Right, yeah. Which is a good segue to like, if people are listening, probably wondering what is this episode about? Where is this going? Right. So today we're going to talk about sort of things for associates to look out for and practices with associated agreements. Paul, as you mentioned, I've got a top 10 associate agreement ahas that I did for an event that you hosted a awhile back and uh, recently you've been doing some cool stuff on the dental nachos Facebook group with, you know, sort of anonymous stories. And if you could just, I like

Paul: to tell the listeners a little bit about what I am doing because I think it's really cool. I grew up in the 1980s and if you grew up in the 1980s and you went to school, you read some Judy Blume books and they, some of them stayed around and tales of a fourth grade, nothing was one of the classic ones. You know, someone going through grade school. Really a great, great, uh, great books. I did tales, I'm doing tales of a dental student, nothing or tails and associate agreement. Nothing. Just so our listeners understand people, I most of the time encourage people to make their own posts, tag me and I'll protect them. If you know Dennis, start acting as the kids, say Rob Craig, Craig. And they say, you know, poking at that, right? So I will encourage people to post their own stories. But some of these stories like in your world really need confidential or confidential nature.

Paul: Right. And I've been posting them for them and getting some feedback from the group. And we have one we can talk about with, you know, you and I talk about all the time with associate red flags because, well, just like we talked about a few minutes ago, there's red flags or orange orange flags upfront that if you don't like see them you can get, we just talked about someone being excited, excited on their first day of being an associate. But I've seen some people excited for first dates not marrying those people. Cause sometimes people's, you know, a quote unquote truer color cars come out are more often behavior. So, uh, what you put together is great here. I'd like to start off by asking you, uh, if you don't mind from your top 10 list. Uh, so I get a lot of questions. Rob, tell me a little bit about, um, the noncompete, right? So where, how is it measured? This is a common question I get and how, how people apply looking for jobs. And you know, this happens to me all the time. A non, a noncompete, a five miles that reasonable or not unreasonable, just something like that to start us off.

Rob: It all depends, right, right. Favorite answer. Uh, and, and uh, it depends on whether, uh, where the practice is located. I mean, typically what we're talking about is there's a reasonableness standard that's applied by courts in interpreting and deciding whether or not, uh, one of these would be enforceable by virtue of, of the, uh, of the radius and the distance. And so what's reasonable in New York city, uh, or should say what's reasonable in Montana may not be reasonable in New York city for example. So, you know, in rural places we've seen non-competes as much as like 70 miles. I did a, a lunch and learn years ago at a PIDO residency program in Philadelphia. And somebody came up at the end, you know, sheepishly said like, do you think a 70 mile nine pizza prompts? Like, Whoa, you know, and he was like in Wyoming or Montana or something and it was like two towns over as it turned out.

Rob: And I guess you could drive like 90 miles an hour there. So it wasn't that big of a deal. Uh, but so you really, but a more populated areas, you know, and like in New York city, a lot of times we'll see that non-competes are expressed in a number of blocks, you know, 20 or 30 blocks. Philadelphia, you know, we look at a grid from like river to river, Schuylkill river, the Delaware river, and you know, it's like amounts to be about like a one square mile area. Maybe a little bit more. So it really, it really depends, uh, on where you are. But you know, here's the thing, uh, when you talk about enforceability of non-competes, what you're talking about is whether or not a judge in a trial will rule in your favor.

Paul: And we're going to talk about this probably in a couple of different contexts today. No young associate wants to get to that point. You don't want to run. It drives me nuts, Paul. When I see on Facebook groups two things or, or blocks to two pet peeves of for, for me, uh, one is where people chime in and talk about whether or not it will be enforceable without seeing the agreement, without knowing really even where the practices, right. And so they'll put in their 2 cents. And the next thing is, as I said, people saying don't worry, it won't be enforceable because that is a very, very expensive piece of litigation. You know, and to say that it's not enforceable means you won the trial and to win the trial, you may have spent six figures in legal fees to quote unquote win. And it's just not good advice to say, don't worry about it.

Paul: Well a couple of things, just such good points. So I actually went, did a CPR certification recently and the teacher of that was amazing because he actually was funny. It was the, it was at 6:00 PM and he said, Hey guys, I'm like, it was great. Great, great speaker. He says, I'm two two time Johnny. And like right off the bat and as you got your brain, you're like, what does that mean? He goes, anything I say two times is important. And it was, it was amazing technique because he basically is telling us what's going to be on the test. Cause he knows he's got a bunch of adults at six 30 at night after work and he wants to maybe help someone know about CPR. His goal is for you to stick this. So two time Johnny would say this, so I'm going to say twice from Rob's list.

Paul: It doesn't matter whether or not a noncompete is enforceable. It doesn't matter whether or not a noncompete is enforceable because just like you shared, uh, to find that out is not a situation anybody wants to be. And, and no one really wins in those scenarios. But let's talk Rob, I'm the employer and you've guys have done number of associate contracts for me. And this is just part of my concept for this content here. It's also to teach some of our people who might be hiring associates or thinking about, so if I went to you and say, Hey Rob, I'm opening up Paul's house of dentistry and notches, you're like, great name, I think it's awesome. And uh, I want to hire an associate right here in center city, Philadelphia and I've been on Facebook groups, Rob and I want to have a five mile restrictive covenant.

Paul: I went five miles. How do you help manage my expectations as someone who's working, working, you know, I'm hiring you a lot of different ways of looking at that. Okay. So first off, five miles, that's, that's definitely aggressive in center city Philadelphia where you know, you might be talking about a mile even to being being a lot more protection than you probably need. Uh, but it really, there's a few things that are going, coming into play here. Even if you said, Hey, I want to have this five mile non-compete. And might say, well, you know what Paul, that might be a little aggressive. You may scare some people away. However, I've seen enough times that people will sign just about anything, sometimes younger associates that you put in front of them. And I think some people make it to us and they're the people that you know, realize that this is important, right? A way more people to sign these things without, without even looking in. That's a good idea.

Rob: But what I would say Paul is, yeah, it's probably not going to be a, it's on the aggressive side. It may not be enforceable. However, you know, in order for it to be a deem found to be unenforceable, that means the associate's going to have to spend $100,000 to go through the litigation. And here's the kicker. If they, uh, have a noncompete, even if it's quote unquote unreasonable or quote unquote unenforceable, if they go to a bank to get a loan to buy a practice or do a startup, they walk into a bank of America. I guess nobody walks in,

Paul: but let's just pretend it's like the old days. The old days. Yeah. I'm here from, I think it was in with a straw hat and he takes his hat off and they hand him a glass of lemonade and said, what can I do for your Dr. Goodman? I want to start my dental. Well, yeah, I'd like to get a loan. Come right over here. You know, so, but so they walk in, it's a bank of America and they say, well, you know, I want to have this a, I want to get this loan. They say, okay, well do you have a

Rob: non-compete? And they hand them a copy of their employment agreement that has this quote unquote unenforceable radius of a noncompete. The bank's not going to give them the money. And it's not just bank of America. It's anytime, you know, because even though it's, everybody thinks they know that it's not going to be enforced, uh, the bank's not going to risk it until you have a court order saying that it's not. And it's an expensive, long and expensive process to get to that. So, uh, from an employer standpoint, the person that's going to hurt you presumably is the one that's going to do something entrepreneurial. You know, does that mean that we could you enforce it if they went and worked as an associate someplace, you know, down the road man, maybe, maybe not. Maybe you would want to, maybe one, maybe you can care, but the, the associated that you're worried about is the entrepreneurial one who's going to do a start up or an acquisition. And if even though you've been aggressive on the, on the radius, you've now stymied their ability to do that.

Paul: I think there's a couple of things I want to point out and I, I like, you know, when are your, the Facebook dental groups are great, but like we've talked about before, you have to take it with a salt around a giant margarita. But you know, grain of sunshine. But here's what I would say, and this is just, but I encourage dentist on both sides of say, when you go to a Rob Montgomery is an expert in law or you go to, Paul Goodman is an expert in eating out at Mexican restaurants. If someone came to me and said, I'm here in Philadelphia, you're the nacho guy, it's Friday at 8:00 PM and we really want to eat at Alvarez and we're going to go with our family of four, two old guys without a reservation and we're really going to go tell is right now because we want to eat it.

Paul: The nacho place nacho guy and we want to be there and I'm hearing this and the entire time my brain, I'm like, it's a terrible idea because it can be a two and a half hour wait. They don't have reservations, so that person who's asking the expert should just add this to any, any sort of thing they say. Does that sound like a good idea? Hey Rob, I'm going to do, I have a practice in Pennington, New Jersey. It's my first associate I've seen on the Facebook groups. The 10 mile restrictive covenants are normal. Does that sound like a good idea? Because then it opens your brain up to your expert, giving you some feedback. And I, you know, I've

Paul: listened to over a decade of friendship and advice, Rob, I've listened to a lot of Rob Montgomery isms and one of my favorites is people who start off unreasonable usually don't get more reasonable. And it's such great advice and it helped me in my dental career. So it's another life metaphor. Young associate who might see an aggressive restrictive covenant or I'll put it on the associate employer who has an associate who says they don't want any restrictive competent. Both of those people are just raising their hand saying, I'm not super reasonable right now and am I going to get more reasonable? Probably not. So when some young associates, I don't want to restrictive covenant at all. I shouldn't be able to do whatever I want. I already know that this person is in a certain place because I deal with young dentists all the time and most of them know restrictive competence a thing.

Paul: Yeah. And then if there's the salt small subset who demand not to have one, they're special. Right. And same thing with the owners. I think that's just a important point. Well, you know, and that's as a good point of the conversation to talk about. You know, what can agreements really do and what can't they do? So if you have an agreement that says that the associate can't do certain things or the non-computer really any provision, you know, if you have somebody who's not being reasonable or whose expectations are not aligned with yours, the agreement is not going to fix that. Right. The, the, you know, the agreement is ultimately the provides the enforcement mechanism. It's the ticket to the lawsuit, right? That if somebody doesn't do something, you can Sue them. Right. Nobody should ever sign an agreement with the game plan being like, we're going to sign this agreement and go to litigation.

Paul: I shouldn't say, I mean maybe there's some situation I'm just not thinking about right now. But you know, we spent a lot of time in our practice trying to think of ways to avoid litigation. Like, because we see what it is, we see how the expense of it, we see the personal toll. So if, you know, people will tell me sometimes that, yeah, well you know, I don't really get along with this person so well, but you'll do a really good part partnership agreement. Robyn, fix that. No, this is not like some magic thing that, you know, like I have the bad relationship. It was a bear relationship and it really had no business working. These people shouldn't work together, shouldn't work for the other. Uh, but, but once Rob Montgomery did that and that agreement while Jay, it just fixed it. I mean, you guys, you guys are the caddy of good sense.

Paul: I mean, that's what you guys do. I mean, you're, you're, what I'd like to point out and even us working together so closely, you know, you're on the outside of these people's lives and you're there, you're the caddy. And they gotta hit the shot, right? I mean, and you're telling them, Hey, you could hit your golf ball in the water if you tried to do this or you, this is a safe play. But I think sometimes people unknowingly with kind of like maybe you should feel, um, a sense of pride. People think you have so much power Rob, but it's like they think you could just make people do things. Yeah, these are real life people. You're just setting up, you're setting up shared understanding, which is just like our informed consent. So it's going back to where it didn't seem like it fit with her talking. I say to somebody, here's our agreement, or here's

Paul: your consent for getting your tooth out. And that's shared understanding and it's not so that I'm preventing them from suing me or they're trying to Sue me. And so at that point we have shared understanding. And when people say, I don't want this at this point, it's a bad start and you can't go back and hold some piece of paper up and say, yeah, but you signed the consent form. That never helps. Right. You know, or you sign the financial agreement. I mean it's just shared understanding and well those, those documents just become exhibit one in the trial and then, and that's not an not a good place to be, but that's where that's, you know, that gets us, gets us to another point. We're really kind of going off topic. No, we're not going off topic. This is the topic. There is no topic, uh, that it's important to really just have common sense.

Paul: And when you see red flags, you know, runaway, you know, and uh, or I should say maybe you don't run away and you see one red flag, but be careful and if you see too many red flags, then you run away. And you know, it's just like anything, whether you're talking about a practice transition, uh, an employment relationship, anything, there's so many people that we see that just over commit to a deal or to a situation and they put these blinders on and it's like, there's just like, it's almost like the Hollywood, you know, movie movie cue, the like the Inferno on either side. Like everything's up there, they're just looking straight forward like, well this seems okay. No, no, this is not okay. It's such a good point. I'm going to talk with him and Mark Marquesas later tonight and he's, him and I, when he was here for the dentist team boost, had lunch.

Paul: And you know, I, I started off my lecture at the residence last night and the most important thing I can tell you guys is to be willing to think in a different way. And what that means is, and you were from us working together, I've explored practice transitions where I've invested time and money and energy and hours and I know the entire time that it might not come to fruition and I'm okay with it and I just, I don't waste it. And that, and if you want to be in this dental space, that's how you have to be because everyone, if you, I mean, uh, if you talk to a dentist who was playing football and say, uh, am I going to lead the game the whole time and in the third quarter if I want to be down, I don't want to play. I'm like, you don't know until you get to the third quarter.

Paul: And you know, I just use him as another multi-practice owner that over-committed such an important part because this happened from square one and some of it's are just toxic training. Rob, this happens when an associate brings me an idea for a job and I can tell already they don't want me to tell them anything bad about this job. And I and I, I will tell them, but it's just better to have some mental flexibility and saying, does this sound like a good idea? Does this make sense? And sometimes say, yeah, it makes perfect sense. They want you to work two Saturdays a month and they worked the other two Saturdays. Perfect sense. So your choice right now, associate is to work with this, this owner who works two Saturdays a month and wrap your mind around two Saturdays or just not work at this place, but trying to get them to, you know, change their Saturday policy. That's not gonna work. They said, I don't know, um, I get paid 20% of collections and no minimum. I'll say, that doesn't make sense. You know, so it's, it's a, um, it's a key point with the overcommitment. Well, and that, that's also another interesting

Rob: point, which is, you know, what things as an associate can you really expect to change an agreement? You know, in our, our philosophy generally is like, you know, let's find some things that are important. Focus on a few key points from an associate agreement review for on the associate side. And we're not going to rewrite the practices agreement even if sometimes, and let me say, Paul, we see some real pieces of dumb man, like, get out. It's crazy. You know, uh, we're, we're fortunate that, uh, you know, we have exposure to such a wide range of quality of employment agreements. There's some stuff that, that totally deserves to be rewritten. Uh, but you know, even in those situations, you have to be mindful of what you're actually asking to change, you know? And, and where we're at when we're on the employer side, even though our agreement is a complete masterpiece, sometimes we'll see something come back and there's another lawyer that just, you know, the for the associate has totally red lined everything, you know, change, you know, the defined term, added different provisions, put an arbitration provision where there wasn't one and it's like, Whoa, Whoa.

Rob: You know? And, and, and we see this in the legal profession and I'm sure people that are Mads and sides out there that have worked with lawyers and gone through deals. I've seen this over the years. And it's kinda like what gives some lawyers, uh, you know, some lawyers do and gives all lawyers a bad reputation is just changing things for the sake of changing things. And it's like, did that change really need to be made? You know and the answer as a, as a young associate, there's no, then like you shouldn't be asking the employer to do that.

Paul: I mean I'm, I'm going to, you know, you've heard me say it's such a great TSD that's so dentist and I'll, I'll like, maybe I'd make TSB. That's so a barrister, is that what you guys are doing? Because I have to say, remember you know Stephen A. Smith has this thing, come on man. I think it's him and part of me is like when I see this with the attorneys and even though I'm an attorney, it's like, it's like, I feel like you guys should have each other like come on man. Like, like, like if I had to give a treatment plan for Rob with three crowns and two root canals and one implant and someone gave something that was ridiculous, I'd be like, come on dentist man. Like yeah, you went to school too. Like it's just like you're making it too crazy, right? Like it's insulting.

Paul: I feel like they are insulting themselves as they're trying to insult you. It's like during this whole thing, the whole thing you went through were like a licensed attorney has come up with this thing and the other licensed attorney basically said it was made by Daphne, right? It's this and that. And I mean with that helps. I don't know how many attorneys listen to this podcast besides her associate's rep, but if that helps, like that's really like a bad look in front of the dentist client for everybody. Even if your attorney is great, like a Rob or Justin or Ana, it just, it just, it's a bad feeling for the space. Right? Well

Rob: it's just like you have to control, you know, your, your representatives, you will go save who hire, who you hire represent. You said this to me and it's their say who you hire as a representative. You, whether it's practice broker, literally an accountant and you know, totally aware of Western. Right, right. You know, you have to keep them in check. I mean you have to defer and there's that fine line between being deferential to the things that you don't know as much or don't have the same expertise. But you can have some common sense, you know, did we really need to change, you know, make 20 changes to the document to, to change, you know, the something that was singular to something that's plural now, you know, electronically. A lot of times those changes can be made quickly and efficiently, but it's just, it's just bad. It's just bad spirit, man. It's just bad for the mojo of the whole thing. People will come to us though and we will get that and it's like, I'll look at that. I'm like, this person, this poor associates just paid somebody a lot of money to basically just like take this job away from them. You know, like you're not going to get the job. They're doing it for themselves. That's why I, that's

Paul: bothers me. I'll use an example or Dennis [inaudible]. Dennis can understand now. So when you get a crown, it can be made out of porcelain and metal or zirconia right now is there, Coney is the most popular. So it's like you got a, like a blue shirt from a cost or a red shirt from the gap. Right. If we were talking about it, I don't think you would get overly dramatic about the red shirt from the gap or the blue shirt from lacrosse. You might say, Oh yeah, this is more popular. Some of the attorneys I can tell like they over dramatize a point that us as the lay person can understand, but like if it's a dentist we understand like you know if your dentist came and said I like your treatment plan but I would do as Erchonia crown, I'd be like okay fine.

Paul: You know, but if he started yelling, how dare you recommend draconian. When I do porcelain fused to metal, it's it's, it's too much drama over a point that will make the agreement or the case go well and that's what I try to learn from you because that's how like you can use that in your dentist speak if you want, cause you say this is like a zirconia versus PFM crown. They'll get that in two seconds. Say, Oh, they both work. One's old school wants to do school, but sometimes the attorneys will put a lot of energy around it and you're like, maybe this is a giant deal. Right. So I think that's important point. Now let me ask you another one, Rob here. Uh, the [inaudible]

Rob: I like to know the indemnification of the practice, uh, by the employer's requirements, the name, the practices, additional insured. I actually get this a lot to me. I pumped it over to you. Tell me a little bit about that, about that one. So, uh, it should just back up for a second to the list that we're looking at this top 10. I think we'll, we'll get this in the show notes. And can we put the, uh, the seminar that we did? Uh, we were linked to that. We'll put that. So, and then you'll see the slides. So listeners, uh, uh, that Paul is referring to and uh, hear the whole spiel. Paul and I, yeah. Doing our doing our thing on a Thursday night, right? Yeah. Um, so yeah, when you talk about indemnification of the practice, what that means normally is when you see it is that you are essentially as the associate being asked to ensure the practice for any problems, anything that comes up.

Rob: So you're going to indemnify them just like your auto insurance indemnifies you if you're in an accident, your malpractice insurance indemnifies you if there's a malpractice claim against you. So if you get into a situation where you're indemnifying are required to indemnify the practice, you have to be careful as an associate because you need to know that your insurance is actually going to cover that indemnification obligation. Otherwise you are responsible for covering the practices, losses. And in some cases that could negate the, the practices, malpractice insurance and you, they might be looking to you to basically be the insurer. And then from the practices standpoint, relying on an identification of an associate and not having your own insurance is not a good idea either. Because I'd rather have my inch a, you know, a rated insurance company covering my claim. Then a a 28 year old who's been practicing dentistry for six months.

Paul: So I will, I appreciate you telling us I needed six year old to fight a little bit and to tell you a story. Yeah. Daphne, four and a half year olds went to Vivian's house for a week. Four and half years old. And my sister is as [inaudible] him, she said it is way too quiet in that room and she's like I'm going to go in there. And luckily she did that. It was a mom sense and they were cutting each other's hair. Okay. So Joe got there. Joe, Joe Joe's a great mom. Jewel's philosophy always could be worse, right? So uh, I'm going to use that example. So they had a crazy plan but I still want to know, even if you're telling me in lawyer speak is a crazy plan. Just walk me through, cause I have malpractice insurance associates have my practice insurance. What is the goal of the practice? Even asking the person who's like, is this for malpractice care related things? Is this for billing problems? Is it for all of it? I mean, I'm just really curious.

Rob: It all depends, you know, what the agreement says. I mean, what we're talking about here really indemnification for malpractice claims that that's the big one, you know, uh, because there is an insurance product for that and, and failing to rely on that insurance product or failing to manage that right. Can be problematic for both sides.

Paul: It's not in your, exactly in your mind exactly. But I'm just curious, will the insurance companies, it seems like they would reject that request anyway,

Rob: let them do you know, like, uh, some just out of hand will not provide additional insured, uh, coverage for somebody that's in an employer employee relationship. Some of them will and it's like additional money cause they have to pay a premium, you know, I have to pay 25% more or something like that. Sometimes when people do the nonsensical independent contractor, you know, a gig which, you know, my thoughts on that, uh, don't recommend it. Uh, then that situation, sometimes insurance companies will issue, uh, the, uh, additional insured coverage. So it's really something that you have to be careful about that with any agreement, Paul, whenever you see the word indemnification, that should be theirs. I guess it's not a red flag. There is a question should pop up, you know, like what am I agreeing to do here? You know, like that's a, that's a serious commitment that of comes along with that in a serious obligation then could be significant liability. So you have to know what, what that means to you and you know, effectively if, if things were to play out, you know, would you have financial loss? Is it something that's insurable? You have to understand what you're on the hook for. That's a classic thing that you

Paul: tennis played tennis with, with the other attorney when you're looking at an employment contract. And that's, that's a perfect example of it for two times, two, two time a nacho here, awareness is important, awareness is important. And that just falls under your, your, uh, comment there. Um, to go to the, what we're doing on dental nachos with the tails of the social agreement, nothing. One thing I would like to share is, which is going to happen more and more cause we have, uh, which is great. We have so many female dentist is the new moms scenario where they go back to work, um, and they have to pump during work. And this, uh, dentist here was not given a place or time to do that. And this is, I think we're going to do a good service to our listeners because this is a question that everybody has and, and I believe Rob wants to get right. Uh, but they're just not sure. And we'll walk through this a little bit cause I've been this, okay. Okay. Rob, I have an associate coming back. Uh, she's gonna, uh, pump. She just had a baby. She's gonna pump and she told me that she needs, uh, two 20 minute breaks a day and we work from nine to five. How do I handle this or help me understand what the, what a common sense and the law is. Okay. So this is one, even though we have the [inaudible], the

Rob: disclaimer at the, at the beginning of the show, we're not, we're drilling down on some, on some legal stuff here. So this is not, this is an additional express disclaimer. We're not going to give legal advice here, but we'll talk generally about, about what set the law there. And there are laws, there are federal laws, there are state laws, there are city laws. This is the classic, uh, example of something that if you have this issue or these concerns on either side, you should consult with, uh, with an attorney about the specifics of your situation in the jurisdiction where you know that that applies in the law that applies to that jurisdiction. So there are a lot of different sort of issues and a lot of different laws. But the, the federal law, there's the fair labor standards act requires employers to provide a reasonable break time for an employee to express breast milk for her nursing child for one year after the child's birth.

Rob: Each time such employee has need to express the milk. And, uh, with that, they're required to provide a place other than a bathroom that is shielded from view and free from intrusion from coworkers and the public, which may be used by an employee to express breast milk. And that that's the, you know, the law as of today, all this stuff changes to if somebody who's listening to this podcast, you know, two years from now, who knows, it could be, it could be different, but, uh, that's the law. So, you know, and there we've had questions where somebody says, well, if you have less than 50 employees, do we really have to follow this? You know, can we show that we maybe have at hardship? Then you start to get into this other gray area, which you know, is just a dangerous place to ever be, you know, so sort of like the law, you know, and how you would defend yourself. And then there's just like best practices to avoid problems and lawsuits, which is a much better way to look at this stuff. So the law may set forth bare minimums and you can try to sort of FIGE and try to skirt the law in certain cases. But if you try that, I don't recommend it. You can find yourself having to defend an inaction. And even if you quote unquote are right, you know, it's, it's an expensive process and, and not good for morale, not good for relationships in the office out

Paul: for me to just share real life stuff with. There's a couple things, I mean, one, a happy team members, good for everybody or you know, this is a big, big thing that they are going through and these are part of your team that you're working with all the time. They were, remember everyone ever doing this and most of them, they're returning from work, you know, returning from working with you prior to trial. This is usually what happens, right? Usually I know there's also laws around this, but usually people are working somewhere for a period of time, have a child like, and I was like a hygienist and then come back to work. So we're, we're excited to have them back. But I will admit that it's tough to figure out with an office schedule. So some of my advice is if this is happening to you on employer side or employee side, at least start to make a game plan for it because you're gonna need a game plan for it because there's definitely the law and there's also what, how it fits into your day.

Paul: Um, we D we've done the thing where we have a room, we have a sign, um, we create a space in our Dentrix to us is like our calendar Calendly. So it's like create a space in that and you're going to have to do this well ahead of time because, um, this is actually what's interesting revenue. You know, a couple of my favorite movies are a fight club, uh, was one of them. And, uh, how about this? And we've had some great people on the podcast, uh, and she's having a child, whatever, you're the owner of the practice coming back to pop, right? So now you're both people, right? So you can not going to see yourself, but you have to solve the problem, right? So I'm sharing with you like this is more of solving the problem of this person is going to need the new moms who need probably two period, two segments of time throughout a day that fits into the office schedule to do this.

Paul: And you have to plan around it with the understanding that it can't be the bathroom and you didn't even create a space where, but this is a really important point because some associates had been in scenarios where they don't get this and it's just a miserable scenario because sometimes the owner is even on site in those places and there's really nobody to quote unquote complained to. Uh, and the other thing I would point out is it's in everyone's best interest for the schedule a, you have not had the pleasure of coming to our dental office, Rob. Now you don't have to be a patient. He's coming enjoy the scenery. It's great because it's in the same place like circus with the end. I've seen the pictures yet. The animals don't try to eat. You just annoy you to death the whole time. Um, but, uh, it's just a lot of stuff going on.

Paul: If anything happens with that schedule is a good impact. Everybody. So, you know, if you're about to go out on a maternity leave, uh, you'd be telling people before you go out, right? Because in this world with hygiene visits being six months in advance, you know, four months, three or four months is no time. So I think it's, uh, a point that's often overlooked because if you think about it, most of these owners are male. And at the time of dental school, my dad's age and 90% male, and now we have, which is great, 50, 50 female, right? And I actually, I was on a, um, a, a Facebook live recently, and this is a twofold problem. I mean, we're talking about the, the pumping breaks is, is, is nothing compared to what do you do with that job when the person's out on maternity leave? Right? You know, how do you get coverage when it's the dentist, as the owner? So I think this is a important, important point. And that's just a, if you were advising an associate or employer on this, uh, or no, we can't give legal advice, but just to, uh, use what you said best practices or common sense. Yeah.

Rob: Oh absolutely. I mean, because you don't, you know, this kind of, it's like the noncompete discussion, you know, the to say what, what you can have a defense to a lawsuit if you do certain things. Like, you know, you want to try to avoid that, you know, it's sort of like, you know, we tell people, you know, to avoid the appearance of impropriety, right. You know, when they're, when we're talking about non-solicitation and things like that because you just don't want to get into this situation where you have inexpensive piece of litigation. Right. It's the same thing with this stuff. You know, it's, these are, you know, there are things that you can kind of come up with and Trump up to try to defend a lawsuit if that happens. But you really want to just try to avoid that whole thing in the first place.

Rob: It's just not good for, for anyone. And I think, you know, from an associate's standpoint, you know, and it's hard to really gauge that this is happening, but you know, do you want to work someplace where somebody is trying to discourage the law in this regard? They're not taking care of people. And I think the, uh, the Facebook posts that it was sort of the most recent one that we're talking about here is a situation where a young dentist is working in a practice with an absentee owner. You know, some like non dental non dentists, not unlicensed owners are involved, you know, and that's, uh, you know, it's not a good situation, you know, and, and, and I don't know enough about that situation either and, you know, just see what, you know, what, what you post it. But you know, w there may have been other red flags that this person should have seen, uh, before

Paul: John did that. You know, that, that's, that's what I said a lot. And this is, you know, as the season, and I, I want to get to one, I guess one more important point, but it's a lot like dating, but you know, we are not a young and hip anymore, Rob. We're meeting age. But like there's a study for yourself. Yeah. If you have, I'm not dating, but I'm certainly young. This, this falls, this, you can't, and this is one of my two time, not things. You can't go to job. You can't go get a job because if you go on a date with someone in 2019 or two dates and you've decided this isn't the person from you for you. Some people just ghost them and never contact him again. And then that people just go on their Merry way and they start. But your hip ghosts, I know the ghost.

Paul: I uh, is it? Uh, but then they just go on their Merry way and they're having fancy cocktails with someone else. No one, no one matters. But if you're in a job, you can't do this, so you can't get another job that easily. So it's so important to just really dig into this upfront because when associates say, if I don't like this job, I'll get another juggle. What if you can't get any? Like what if the season past and everyone has jobs, right. So that's why it's just so critical. And the other, what kind of imagine getting married, like this was a rotten relationship and I'll get married and if it's not good I'll just say I'll just get divorced. Walk me into this thing. Perfect Mary and I want you to show, it's pretty ridiculous. But it's funny cause the two actors are comedians splitting up together and the whole concept is this.

Paul: They want to get divorced but they can't afford to move out of the house. So they got lived in the house together and one of those graphs. But this is dentistry. Whenever these things are happening where somebody wants to, you know, say something about restrictive covenant or how they're getting paid, you know, are they still working there even, right. So if they are, that's really creating a, a lot of animosity in the office, which is what you don't want for people seeing patients. So it's like the splitting up together TV show, it's like that happens and I'm sure you see this word partnerships frequently. It's like they want, they want to end the partnership but they can't. So that's why you got to go in, um, with total awareness. What I want to ask you Rob, about the minimum here. So this is, I think would be our best help to the community and uh, daily minimums.

Paul: So you see all these agreements, how often are you seeing, so I'll share with me first. So we have a daily safety net guarantee of $500 a day because I believe that these people are working for me. It's like, think of it as a a hundred thousand dollars a year and you have the opportunity to make more right now can make lasting, maybe you'll make 30,000 extra, make 50,000 X. I hope you make a lot extra. It's good for both of us if they make us. Sure. But I know when I look at an associate with debt and a debt and they want to live their life, I don't want them to feel unsure about their pay. But then I know there's another camp where it says, you know, you get what you collect and that's it. And if you get to 100 bucks, get 1000 bucks, what are you seeing from both sides with the daily minimum? And can you get that into contracts or just share with us on that end?

Rob: Yeah, I mean that's, we unfortunately probably see a daily minimum is, is in the minority of the times. Okay. And then also we have to talk about whether it's a daily minimum or it's a draw. Right? Right. A draw can be, you know, set off against, uh, future earnings so that if you have to tap into that draw today, you know, three months from now when you're making more money, the employer gets to recover that. Uh, and you know, you've, uh, really, I think spoken eloquently about ms Jesus. Did you know why it's a good thing? Uh, and, but you know, again, it depends on the, on the situation. I think, you know, from an attorney standpoint, we don't get involved on the associate side of, of that discussion. You know, we leave that to the associate to, to have a discussion about, about the business points commonly cause, cause otherwise, you know, if we get too involved with those discussions and you know, that the legal fees get, you know, out of control. So we like to see our clients really kind of cover the business issues to the extent possible before we start reviewing the actual agreement. And so, but it, it's not unreasonable to, to ask the practice for that commitment and then see what the practice says. And if they, if they don't have enough confidence, the practice in the amount of work that they have in this situation to commit to $500 a day, then that, I'm not going to say it's a red flag. It's definitely a, an orange.

Paul: But see, that's why I think Robin, who we're sitting here now, we can put on our business owner for doors. I brought mine. Um, uh, you don't understand this as a owner of a law practice that's hired multiple associates because it doesn't exist. So I think we just need new new verbiage starting now and I've introduced it. The old school associate style was when there was more jobs, enough work and owners that wanted to dial back and it was not a problem. They would be handing work, getting work. They've extra patients, associate dentists. Now I have a home, I have hygienist, I have front desk, I have assistants, all of them are paid hourly. And if hygienist patient doesn't show up, they still get paid, right? Because I've committed $40 an hour times eight hours. I mean, I would never think, Oh, I want to pay you two 70 instead of three 20 because that's set over there.

Paul: But then this associate dentist thing needs to be redefined and I believe it needs to be redefined as this position. And dentists get some of these, when you work with people, my first associate right there, they're hiring their first associate ever, right? They say, is this person going to buy in? How about you? Just get through the first year. Right. And you'll think of a 12 month period. Think of it like an investment in anything. Your office, CBCT, a CBCT. Sarah can't hide that and say I'm going to commit $100,000 to this endeavor. This is what I'm going to do. Just like you do in law. And at the end of 12 months we're going to see how it goes. And I think it should be spoken off as dollar plus bonus. That's what I'm trying to say. When we say like $100,000 plus twice a year there'll be either a bonus or nothing and it would just reframe the whole thing.

Paul: It would take pressure off. The associate would take pressure off. The owner did to be honest. I mean I live this world and I've created a pretty good system for us. But with other associates they get are scared. You know, one, one week is bad, but the owner probably like, I've been doing this for a long time cause I'm in bed. Why you make people cry? Why do you make your own people nuts like that? So, you know, I hope we redefined it and I hope you start more opera agreements where it's just like, I want to commit this amount to a person, just like a hygienist and there'll be bonus money involved. And then if the associate heard bonus money, at least the word is bonus. Right. And, uh, I just think the system that we use to pay associates now is too antiquated for what's happening in modern day dentistry.

Rob: Yeah, it makes sense. You know, and it's, you know, we see this too, like I don't want a young associate in my office who doesn't really have the experience yet to go out and bill, you know, tons and tons of hours when they're like just running the wrong direction. I want them to kind of do what they can handle in a way that's manageable. It's the same thing with the, with the, you know, a young associate dentist. I'd imagine, you know, there needs to be some sort of period of time where like they learn they and they're, they're mentored and you know they, they kind of get their feet on the ground and you don't necessarily want to encourage them on day one to start cranking it out. You know like you need to crank it up and I barely know what I'm doing. Doctor, I'm going to bed.

Paul: I just thought of something interesting. Maybe we could start to do this because you are such an expert in wine and you do wine pairings. I was just going to say this podcast pairs well with our case acceptance podcast because what I'll share is these are associates don't have relationships with patients and you just having a soldier, seasoned dentist or mad dentist, you are the same way as them. They did. Patients didn't know you and nobody sits across from a new person says, yeah, I want to do $2,000 worth of work. So no matter how good they are or how fast they're at, what they do or how good they were in school or residency program, they're coming into a new space and they take that minimum six months to even start developing patient relationships. And then sometimes a year or more. So for you to kind of put it on, well, you have to kill what you eat or figure out what to do.

Paul: It's just totally unfair. I mean it's just, it's been, you should, I mean, I say I do this with my coaching all the time, people and I just go, they, I'm like, you're not ready for an associate. And they kind of say, thanks for telling me. Yeah. Cause they only want the good parts of it. Right. You know, so it's like, it's, it's a conversation, I think so important to this because it's bringing the bad's baby age Dennis, the Mads and the sands together. And both of us live in this world every day, you know, talk with these people.

Rob: Yeah. And, and look a bad, a bad relationship is not good for anybody, you know? And even if you quote, unquote or right, you know, quote unquote right wine, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't make the situation better and it just makes you right. And that's, that's not good.

Paul: I've been in those arguments in my family, it didn't feel so good at the end. Right. So it's, I remember with Harry, we all know that in majority she's had the same white, you know, I'm white, I'm right, I have one, but your face doesn't make feel like I won. Right. So it's like, you know, these are people, you know, there was just a, as Europe, but like we're putting, we're working on people. Our clients are people we're working on. They feel this energy. You know, we walk into a place, you know, you walk into somebody and they just had a big fight in their family. You feel it. Right? So it's like, you know, P uh, not sure if there's a shocker how people, they don't like to see the dentist already, right? So we have to put on this Broadway show, nobody wants to see, nobody wants to be there on our best days.

Paul: So, you know, it's tough. You can't let that stuff creep in. Um, and, uh, there's no, uh, there's no place you can really retreat. Like you're here, here at the, uh, you know, the Montgomery law firm. Everyone has their own offices and people can go and shut doors and they can go and work on other projects. It's like, you know, we'll, you and I've been to many meals together. Dentistry is very similar. It's all on stage. You know, you're at a restaurant, it's all happening there. There's, you know, there's no place to retreat to. So yeah, that's a good point, Paul. So we'll have to actually, we'll have to dig into some of these, a, a future one. But these are great, uh, great tips for our listeners, Robyn. Just to kind of review, we have, uh, you know, the noncompete, uh, the noncompete and it doesn't matter whether it's enforceable or not, right. I think that's key. Uh, the daily minimum, uh, indemnification, uh, are doing things that make sense, best practices with the pumping. Anything else on your mind, Rob, to, uh, add in?

Rob: Yeah, I mean, I, I'll say this, this is kind of a sort of a quasi legal, quasi common sense point, which turns out on my top 10 list is number one. Uh, I think at the time I did this, I was probably particularly passionate about this, this issue, but, uh, I think, you know, this is a contract, you know, and I say this is a contract and dammit, it's important, right? Uh, and, and people that have heard me speak, uh, you know, the Einstein residency group for Wyman probably heard me speak well a whole lot of times, right? Paul? Uh, but anybody that's heard me speak as a young dentist, a crowd, and, uh, is, uh, has heard me say that these are agreements and they are to be taken seriously. You know, and I think what young associates need to be mindful of is that the playing field is changing.

Rob: This is a different, you're now entering a different space in your life, right? You though, so you've probably made it to this point without ever signing a serious contract. I say a serious contract. I mean, one that's going to have a significant impact. The language in the agreement, having a significant impact on your, your livelihood and your future and one that is negotiable and one that has a lot of variables. Uh, you know, up until this point, you've signed apartment leases in college or in, in, in dental school, you may have signed a lease to buy your car. You know, these are agreements that, you know, maybe the, the apartment lease you want to be a little more careful about, but there are things that really you can't negotiate that much. They're form agreements. Nobody walks into the, the Subaru dealer to sign the lease for the Subaru and tells the financing manager like, yes, this is all pretty good.

Rob: But in paragraph eight, I like to make some changes to my lease agreement. They're like, what, you know, get outta here. You Jack ass. You know? But, uh, when it comes to employment agreements, there are a lot of different things that you have to be aware of. And this is like you're a grownup now, you know, and what was sort of like, and you kind of roll along on autopilot when it comes to agreements up into this stage of your life. Now, you know, you've entered a new place and, and what you, what these agreements say matters, they can be, uh, impactful to, to how and where you will be able to earn a livelihood. And you know, people have spent a lot of time, uh, and going through college and dental school, a lot of money, know you've taken exams to get the license to be able to practice this profession and you have to take that seriously.

Rob: And this is all about, you know, this is the manifestation of that. And, uh, you just have to be careful. You have to be aware and, and realize that, you know, this, this matters. You know, we do see people that come to us after the fact and they've signed bad agreements that they, sometimes they won't even read them, which is just nuts, right. You know, and we see the, the aftermath of that and the impact that it has on their ability to buy a practice or do a start up or become a partner or take another job. Uh, and they just had no idea when they, when they signed this agreement. And, and um, so really, you know, uh, it's, it's awareness. Contractual awareness is, you know, we, we've

Paul: cool. I mean, you've just put things so well there and I would just add that, you know, this is the thing that dictates your livelihood and paying off your debt and pay, you know, one of the things don't pay us. Go with seminar without having a dental focus attorney. Look at your agreement. Don't pass. Go with having a dental focus trying to look your group. Because this is why Rob and I share this all the time. There's no downside. If I came to you with an agreement and say, Hey Rob, can you look this over? And you say, you know what, Paul is a good agreement. I tell them to change the restrictive covenant, but if they don't, I'd still probably do it. But you know it's a good agreement and you're a, I do this a lot. This is a good agreement. Hat's well-worth.

Paul: I'm just picking a number of $1,000. I know BCP different. That's well worth $1,000 well-worth. You now are confident in this job. But what's even more is I bring your agreement and say there are 14 things wrong with this thing and this is just so many red flags, Paul. And that's why there's no downside to running things by trusted advisors. I mean it's just like we talk about be purposeful. It's, you know, people come to the both of us and want us to unwind something or fix the dish. It's broken. You can't, you know, you have to prevent it from breaking in the beginning. And I just think that our lack of, and we edit podcasts, this is the things they don't teach you in dental school. The first thing, this is some of the first things they should teach you in dental school because it dictates your whole career. They should be infused in this along with your clinical care. So a perfect wrap-up.

Rob: Well, you know though, but it also applies to the practice owner to the practice owner should want the associate to go take that agreement to a lawyer so that they know what they're signing themselves up for. If if you have as a practice owner, there are things in that agreement that you feel strongly about that you, you, these are the rules of the road. This is, these are the conditions of this employment. You want that associate to embrace them and understand what the expectations are and if they stand in front of you, you hand them a 10 page agreement and they sign it on the spot and they didn't read it, that's not good because again, this is like setting up, you know the situation for a problem down the road. You want them to agree to, to read it. You want them to understand what they're signing themselves up for because if it's, if they're not happy with that, they don't want to do it.

Rob: It doesn't matter that it says in the agreement that they signed and you now have a problem, right, and we're trying to avoid problems here. That's the recurring problems at all costs, you know? And so with that, be reasonable with the amount of time that you give an associate to get a lawyer and to review it. You know, you can't say, Hey it's Wednesday and I want this thing back on Friday. No, no, you are a jackass. If you do that, you know, and you are asking for problems, you know, is the game here to try to get them to hoodwink them to sign up, you know? Or is it to enter into a stable, you know, relationship for the foreseeable future.

Paul: And it as, it's like, it's just saying to the say if you're a associate on some of these dentists dates looking, just looking to work at this office and you like it say, is there a contract that I could run by my dental focus attorney? See what they say? And they, some might say, this is my first associate, how do I get one to do that? And maybe you have to help them. I've held both. It's almost say, Oh yeah, we have the standard agreement. Everybody signs it red flag. No, but maybe they run a by you and it is a good one. I might accidentally say, you know, it's our standard associate agreement, but I've had you guys do good ones. If they brought two attorney and say this makes sense. So do you know, bring that by attorney. Or if they say, you know, you don't need a contract at all, that's another red flag.

Paul: So these questions are stuff you need to ask. Yeah. So yeah, and, and if somebody, if an employer says, no, you can't have the agreement reviewed, that's a huge red flag. It just does the job that there's a problem there, you know, and that's, that that falls under the heading of, you know, unreasonable people don't become reasonable over time. That is not a place that you would want your overcommitment and you know, the classic Kenny Rogers hold them or fold them. You just got to go into it with that mindset. You can't go into, I'm committed to taking this job and I'm going to ignore the red flags or on the other side, associates are though them or I'm not committed to taking this. You got to go in, play the game, see what makes sense and make the next best decision. And so on that note, you know, TIS the season, we should have some sort of like, you know, like associate agreements season Carol, that would make one for next time everybody in, I won't be checking our ed eggnog right by the season, tax season, holiday season associates season.

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